When asked what the most difficult thing about learning the language, most people studying Japanese will probably say kanji––that was generally my answer too, at least until recently. Half way through my fourth year of study, it’s really starting to sink in just how troublesome the “simple” grammar can be. Er, okay I give up on trying to make this sound like a moderately more formal post. Anyway, I’m still shit with kanji and vocabulary, but the nice thing about kanji and vocabulary is that, on the whole, they’re really fucking easy to look up. Quirks of the grammar on the other hand, not so much. These are largely translation related frustrations as I’m in a translation class now, but I didn’t really notice a lot of this stuff until I had to translate it. Some things are more this-is-easy-in-Japanese-but-doesn’t-English-well, others are more of the this-causes-serious-issues-in-comprehension variety. (inb4 I make ignorant and egregious errors because I’m a shit student)
RELATIVE CLAUSES
Okay, so I actually think the way relative clauses work in Japanese is pretty cool (basically a whole sentence just works like an adjective–yeah I realize that’s effectively what a relative clause is, but the way RCs are used in a sentence in Japanese is almost *exactly* like an adjective). The annoying thing about relative clauses in Japanese is that they’re heavily abused and it’s not uncommon to see like 4+ embedded within each other.
So, if you were diagraming a sentence (idk if anyone else does this, I do all the time because linguistics and it makes sense to me) in which you put parenthesis around clauses, you might end up with something like four open/close-parenthesis in a row. This gets annoying because it can become very difficult to first, disentangle all of the relative clauses and figure out where they all go, and second, figure out how to put it into English. On some level, it reminds me of how we’d often end up with sentences that looked something like this in Latin class: “Caecilius, having been doing something or other, verb-ed.”
A sentence with no subject and no verb is a perfectly ‘legal’ sentence in Japanese.
Yes. You can have sentences with no subjects and no verbs in Japanese. Really, this isn’t so much of a problem in Japanese as it is in attempting to translate Japanese into English. It’s not so bad when you have a sentence with assumed subjects and verbs (as is often the case), since you can just fill in the missing information from context BUT it is far from uncommon to have sentences like this where the subject and/or verb are intentionally left ambiguous–and that doesn’t English well.
A relative clause + it’s head on it’s own is a totally reasonable sentence.
Essentially, this as a standalone sentence: “Bob, who was sleeping.” (it’s even worse when it’s attributes and not verbs, or really really long relative clauses)
I guess this could probably be thrown in under sentences-with-no-subject-or-verb, but I see this structure all the time and I hate hate hate hate it because it is so easy to understand in Japanese but so fucking hard to put into not horrible English sometimes.
It is possible to switch subjects mid-sentence with no explicit indication that this has happened.
This is one of those things you’re only likely to discover 3 sentences/a paragraph later when you realize the last chunk of text you translated makes absolutely no sense. I think this aspect is an annoyance mainly because this is totally illegal in English. For me at least, as a native English speaker, it’s really easy to forget that a mid-sentence subject switch is even possible. I’m kind of curious about the precise rules on this in Japanese, might have to dig around my linguistics textbooks to see what I can find.
On a side note, they really should teach some of this stuff with linguistics in language classes–like the devoicing of certain vowels for example, language teachers will inevitably say “you kind of just have to know, you’ll figure it out as we go along,” but the linguistic rule is so simple: い and う are devoiced after unvoiced consonants (which is *super* easy in Japanese since voiced consonants have a dakuten on them!)
Narration in fiction is fucking weird.
Okay, so outside of the story we’re translating in class I’ve only read a few bits of Japanese fiction in other classes and parts of the 00 novels (most of the stuff we read in 3rd year was news articles and the like). But, assuming that there is but an incredibly minute possibility that Enchi Fumiko’s 猫の草子 and the Gundam 00 novels have anything in common stylistically beyond general conventions of Japanese fiction, the way narration works in Japanese is fucking weird. Basically, if you have a third person, presumably omniscient, narrator there is often little to nothing to distinguish between the narrator and the character’s/s’ thoughts. Again, this is totally not cool in English (well, far from not cool it’s not really even possible considering how subjects work in English).
This is a lot like the last one in that it’s really easy to not notice when the narrator switches off into a character’s internal thoughts until a ways later when you realize either a) wait a minute, why is the third person omniscient narrator displaying strong emotions/giving opinions about things? b) shit, was that a personal pronoun not in a quote or in a sentence ending in と思った? c) something else doesn’t make sense. The same kind of problem occurs when coming out of a character’s internal thoughts and going back into narration (I usually miss it until there’s an explicit 3rd person reference and then I have to backtrack and guess the transition).
Hm, I know I had some other things to add to this, but I think five whines is good enough for now. I’ll probably go back and put in more proper examples when I’m more awake (assuming my cold actually lets me get some sleep today).
It is possible to switch subjects mid-sentence with no explicit indication that this has happened.
That make me crazy, seriously. >_>
I’m not a native English speaker, but I’ve the same problem.
By: Val on 2009/11/11
at 14:24
It’s been driving my classmates nuts too, I guess it’s a common problem? I think the worst part about it is the feeling of immense stupidity when you realize how you interpreted it wrong (at least for me, the subject-switching thing in particular feels so horribly obvious after the fact).
By: citrinitas668 on 2009/11/11
at 17:55
Yeah, I feel SO stupid when that happens! My reaction is always “I’m an idiot!”
I definitely need more practice, I guess.
By: Val on 2009/11/12
at 11:58
Haha, you read waaaaaay to much in to Japanese GoodHaro. It’s really not all that difficult to decipher really. Then again, I guess it comes with practice… *shrugs* The only advice that I can give you about Japanese novels is to keep reading… lots. The more you read, the more practice you’ll get. Gundam 00 was probably the easiest of the Gundam novels to read. Gundam and anime oriented novels aren’t exactly “literature” compared to contemporary authors (Hoshi Shin’ichi <3), so their style is kinda "dumbed down" so to speak.
And at least you don't have to give an entire presentation about translation entirely in Japanese.
I just have to say:
言語内翻訳 — intralingual translation
言語間翻訳 — interlingual translation
記号間翻訳 — intersemiotic translation
^– Yeah… my Japanese friends (also Linguistic majors like me) had no clue about those. Fun. :D Can't wait to upload the Youtube of this baby. Haha. j/k
By: Deacon Blues on 2009/11/11
at 17:18
Well, I’m really just whining. Most of it’s not really so bad, but a number of the things I mentioned stump my teacher regularly in class, so it’s kind of a pain (then again, Enchi Fumiko’s writing style is a bitch to decipher even for the native speakers in the class, apparently). As for the 00 novels, I realize they’re seriously dumbed down (they seem like early middle-school level books, to me) and don’t qualify as literature, but it’s still practice (I am reading proper literature in class too). I’m really only starting to get to the stage that I can comfortably read anything, so I haven’t had a lot of experience yet.
>And at least you don’t have to give an entire presentation about translation entirely in Japanese.
Yeah that sounds difficult. I’m dreading my end-of-term presentation giving a literary analysis of 猫の草子 in Japanese.
By: citrinitas668 on 2009/11/11
at 17:51
I’ve had the fun experience of translating this sort of stuff professionally. I’ll just share my complete sympathy and wholly agree: this stuff is hard. It’s hard to the point that the vast majority of translators simply choose to never touch fiction and narration. And, I never got rich touching it either. But if a person takes the bull by the horns and makes this arcane stuff make sense, it’s quite fascinating, really. An excellent writer can use the complex Japanese language as a conductor leads a symphony.
Or, it can be a huge, tangled mess. Depends on who’s running the show.
By: Jeremiah Bourque on 2009/11/12
at 01:25
I’ve done this in spanish and i completely agree.
It is extremely hard to translate tone.
By: Kyle McMaster on 2009/11/12
at 01:51
“It does not English well” haha, this!
By: mike_s_6 on 2009/11/12
at 03:08
Do you study linguistics?
Who here does study linguistics?
Any language is ok…
Just curious.
By: PAMP_19 on 2009/11/14
at 12:26
Yeah, though not enough to major in it. I’ve met all the minor requirements almost 2x over, but I’ve been too lazy to go back and take the intro phonetics course (what can I say, I hate phonetics; I’m more of a syntax/structure person) so I haven’t got anything official to show for it.
By: citrinitas668 on 2009/11/14
at 20:06
I know what you mean, phonetics is a bit difficult if you don’t have basic knowledge about it. Obtaining good grades in phonetics was very difficult for me.
I study linguistics too (of my language, obviously) and I love it because I can understand better other languages.
I know very little Japanese, and everything what I have learned has been for seeing Anime and listening to Japanese songs.
Who says that from the leisure is not possible to extract profit? Heheheh….
But I would love to learn it thoroughly.
Good luck with your studies!!
By: PAMP_19 on 2009/11/14
at 22:15